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  1. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bwaterhokie View Post
    That doesn't make good sense. If we are going to invest that much in a basketball facility, why wouldn't we invest another 100-200k per year to attract and retain good assistant coaches. Beamer has always been able to get what he wants for his asst coaches. Does Seth not have the pull with Weaver to get the same consideration for his coaches? It doesn't make good business sense to me if that is the reason our coaches are leaving.
    should be a no brainer

  2. #42

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    GCHokie34 - Very insightful. And, think you are spot on.

  3. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by GCHokie34 View Post
    I'm a VT grad...I worked at VT under Greenberg...I have no reason to "keep VT down," I only want to see them do well...we never play VT, we rarely recruit against VT, and wouldn't typically win those battles with any ACC school regardless
    Did anyone actually accuse you of attempting to "Keep VT Down?" If So, I missed it.

    I think what you're hearing is just frustration. We get the same message from all the knowledgeable posters, you, Rev, Cville. It's always the same - "The obstacles facing VT having even a moderately successful basketball program are so steep it makes that very notion practically impossible." You even said it yourself, *you* wouldn't want the job here. If alumi don't want the job of coaching here because the situation is so stacked against you, what's the point?

    Well, if that's the case, the solution isn't *more* money, it's less. Money can only buy you so many things, one thing that money will never be able to buy Virginia Tech is moving our physical location. Our school is built where it's built and that can and will never change.

    If everything is truly as bleak as you make it out to be based largely on factors that are completely out of our control, then perhaps the best solution is to pack it up as a program. I mean, still participate, but just do the very least possible, spend the very least possible, and just kind of mentally and fiscally fold on the whole situation. Just accept our fate as the "Duke Football" of ACC Basketball.
    There's a difference between a "fact" and an "opinion that you agree with."

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Coleman View Post
    Yep, that's the main thing. VT does nothing to try and get people into Cassell Coliseum. They aren't committed to competing with other schools in assistant salary. Etc, etc.

    People compare VT to Kansas State, WVU, etc. Well, WVU invests in their basketball program. They hire John Beilein. They hire Bob Huggins. Kansas State hires Bruce Weber. Those schools are more dedicated to hoops. Nobody is saying that VT can't be like those programs. But until the program is supported more by the administration, and the fans truly have a vested interest, we won't reach that level. Obviously the practice facility was a step in the right direction, but more needs to be done.

    And honestly, not enough people are willing to pay to see VT play. I have had extra tickets before, and I always give them away, but there are just so many people around Bburg who won't go unless somebody gives them a ticket. And that's a fanbase problem, not an admin problem.
    Yeah, I had tix this year, but I probably won't renew. I had to eat the tix for several games.
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  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by VPI63 View Post
    I'm going to be blunt.

    If you are in the BB business, you need to get out now.

    You have no vision and no imagination.

    You see things as you believe them to be, not as what they can be. That's not a formula for success.

    CFB had many more challenges than you have presented here.

    Thank God this man saw a great opportunity to do something special. And when he did, he got all the money and facilities that he could use, but not before.

    And that's the only way VT can get to the next level in BB... find someone with his mindset.

    I'll say it again, because it is the truth: Great players will play for a great coach.......anywhere!

    Anything that is achieved in life that leaves a legacy is done so despite the obstacles, not by going by what "everyone else thinks".

    If this were not so, then everyone would achieve great things; instead most live their lives in quite desperation, maybe gaming the system, becoming bit players on a larger stage, and telling themselves and anyone that will listen, how smart they are.
    the landscape of college athletics has changed very significantly since Beamer's rookie years...fan bases now wouldn't be willing to sit through the years of going 2-9 (4-24 in basketball terms) to get to the promised land

    as a matter of fact, using the Beamer Model...here's what the first six years of this coach's tenure would look like

    4-24
    6-22
    16-14
    17-15
    13-15
    4-23

    do you think ANY coach in today's culture, at an ACC program, could survive that?!? Don't kid yourself...

    since Beamer's rookie years the stakes have gotten bigger. the money has skyrocketed. the players have changed. the fans bases have become more hungry for wins, and thus athletic department have become much less tolerant of failure early in careers

    even if you have some great years, fan bases have pushed coaches out the door for not sustaining that success...

    Bruce Weber
    Paul Hewitt
    John Brady

    3 guys who were fired recently after taking their teams to the final four, the pinnacle of coaching college basketball...John Brady was fired 2 years after he made the final four...2 years!!

    Ben Howland was very close to being fired and he went to three straight final fours...

    so what today's coaches have to do is seek out the jobs that put themselves in a position to succeed early, then sustain that success...as an assistant you want to join a staff that has been there a while with some sustained success...you don't want to join a staff who is likely to jump ship or is on the hot seat, because you don't want to be left standing without a job when the new staff comes in

    as a head coach, you do your research on which jobs have the positives that will allow you to win early...is the university close to an urban area that tends to have an affinity for your university, thus leading to some good prospects who will be interested in your school since an early age...you want to have an athletic department who is committed to your success, both financially and in the promotion of your program...you want to have a fan base who is passionate about your program (which VT has a little bit of) and a good basketball knowledge that won't demand an amount of success the program has never sustained in the entire history of the program

    the landscape of college basketball has changed, and so too have coaches...they've had to, you have to adapt...and if the game changes again, so will coaches, or those coaches will die out

    I am trying to pattern my path after the blueprint I laid out above...you can never be certain about who will stay and who will go, because as I've explained, a couple bad years means youre fired, even after wild success

    but what do I know, I have no vision...

  6. #46
    Hubman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCHokie34 View Post
    I'm a VT grad...I worked at VT under Greenberg...I have no reason to "keep VT down," I only want to see them do well...we never play VT, we rarely recruit against VT, and wouldn't typically win those battles with any ACC school regardless
    I have read your original post several times, and I think you know what you are talking about. I just think the timing is a little problematic. I won't go into all of the things I stated above, but I will say that what you are writing is the same problem that most athletic programs have (minus the location problem).

    I will use an example that is close to me. It is a football example, but you will get the point......

    In 2000, the NC State football program was not getting it done on the field. The football program had some good wins, but they were losing way too many head scracthers and could not consistently beat their rivals (mainly UNC). They fired, our very own, Mike O'Cain to hire a fiesty, charasmatic man to breath some life back into the program. They hired Chuck Amato.

    Chuck, much like Seth, is all charisma. The guy eats, sleeps, breaths his sport and could sell a flame thrower to a snowman. Amato lead the Wolfpack to two straight winning seasons, two straight bowl appearances, and a bowl win (Micron PC Bowl). The fans were pumped for the future. Life was back in the program!......the next year, NCSU started 9-0 on the way to an 11-3 record and a win over Notre Dame in the Gator Bowl. Holy crap, the town of Raleigh threw a parade in the downtown Raleigh for the team.....no joke.

    Well, the team was winning and getting to new heights (much like VT was doing under CSG). The fans were so excited, they were pumping money into the program like gangbusters. The donations helped build a world-class football center. Along with all of the donations, the fans bought lifetime rights to seats in Carter-Finley. Yes, they fored over thousands upon thousands of dollars to make sure they had a seat reserved for themselves for the rest of eternity. The future was grand!!

    Well, after another "solid" season, things went south for the Wolfpack. They lost Philip Rivers for one, and then they realized that Chuck was just not a great "X's and O's" coach. In other words, he could not assemble a team that could perform up to standards out on the field.

    The last three years of the Amato-era were tough. Donations did sink. The ROI was simply not there. This was all happening during years 5-7 of Amato's tenure. Amato had pumped life back into the program, had taken the program to levels it had not been in a while, but the fans and admin knew that he had peaked, and in order to maintain some form of fan support (money), they needed to move on.

    I saw this all with my own eyes because I was a Wolfpack Club member. I have walked through the Murphy Center in Raleigh more times than recruits, and I can tell you, that is the house the fans built (and it is QUITE the house).......

    The point of all this goes back to timing. We are approaching a decade under the current regime, and you are now suggesting we pump in our money? I am not so sure it works that way. Be it right or wrong, excitement brings in money, and there is not a ton to be excited about with our basketball program. Although different sports, I personally see the Greenberg/Amato thing playing out very similarly (although CSG will get more time because of the lower expectations of our basketball program).

    So yeah, I don't think you are trying to hold VT down; however, I just question the timing of your recommendations, and also question why bringing in new blood is out of the question. New blood, typically, means more excitement and donations. I think being in the business, you would generally agree with me on that. If the goal is to get more money into the program, the way I see it at least, is to produce immediately on the court or bring in new blood.

    I hope all of this makes a little bit of sense because I am not going to go back and read it.
    Last edited by Hubman; Thu Apr 12 2012 at 12:55 PM.
    "Don't give up......Don't ever give up." -- Jimmy V

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by GCHokie34 View Post
    Kansas State is only like VT in location, not their commitment to the program. Kansas State ponied out big money to hire Bob Huggins. Kansas State's top assistant, Chris Lowery, just signed on to the staff for $210,000...double the amount James Johnson initially got.

    Regardless, Huggins used Kansas State as a stepping stone to WVU, his alma mater...and Frank Martin essentially pleaded to get out of town and begged anyone who would listen to take him away. And he did so for the exact same problems that VT has right now. Not enough commitment to the program, hard location, etc.

    Is that what you envision for this program? A stepping stone for some other school? Schools like VT, WVU, Kansas State, etc. arguably need MORE commitment than other urban schools in order to overcome their inherent difficulities they cannot change.

    West Virginia has gotten lucky in that one of the better coaches in college basketball just so happens to be an alum. They also have a greater commitment to their program than VT does.

    WVU has a 14,000 seat arena...they just built a $20 million practice facility...they have paid their assistants well enough to keep each of them since 2007 (the year Huggins came back to WVU)...and of course theyve ponied up $1.5 million in base salary to keep Huggins in Morgantown
    My point is that location isn't a limiting factor if you are committed to the program. If the AD (and by default the fans) are willing to pony up the money for quality coaches, perks and facilities, we can have a program that is successful on a national scale. I agree that many programs, based on geography, need more commitment to the program to achieve the same level of success. It just depends on if basketball is important to the VT administration and its alumni and fans.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by vtgreg View Post
    My point is that location isn't a limiting factor if you are committed to the program. If the AD (and by default the fans) are willing to pony up the money for quality coaches, perks and facilities, we can have a program that is successful on a national scale. I agree that many programs, based on geography, need more commitment to the program to achieve the same level of success. It just depends on if basketball is important to the VT administration and its alumni and fans.
    I would agree with that 100%...with a greater commitment to the program, location can be overcome

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by dna-vt View Post
    concerning various thread comparisons of WVU & VT in BBALL.... WVU is not really rural.... it is 45 minutes from Pittsburgh (the same of VT to Roanoke) - WVU is 90 minutes from DC, on the border of the with state of Pennsylvannia/ Ohio (recruiting hotbeds for fb & bball)

    VT is really rural....in the sticks.... 4-5 hours from any true urban area..............its no more rural than fairfas & noerthern va are from DC
    Not sure what roads you drive or maps you use but WVU is over an hour from Pittsburgh and at least 3 hours from DC. It is definitely a lot closer to Pittsburgh than any true urban area is located to Blacksburg.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCHokie34 View Post
    you want to have a fan base who is passionate about your program (which VT has a little bit of) and a good basketball knowledge that won't demand an amount of success the program has never sustained in the entire history of the program

    ...
    Is this the "we haven't gone to the Tourney in the past, so we should not expect to in the future" plug? Hey, I do get it, but is that not a tough pill to swallow if you are a fan that is donating money to the school? In other words, why pump money into the school? I know you are not a head coach, and you are not the one that is trying to get the fanbase back in the seats; however, you do realize that you would have to approach this entire argument in a completely different way if you were? In other words, there has to be some hope. There have to be some strategies. There has to be a firm committment from all parties. Not to sound like Mel Gibson in Braveheart, but if we ignore our admission into the ACC, and embrace the mediocre standards for which the VT basketball program has had for decades, then we will never move forward. Fans will never give money, and we will be a destination for coaches that would like to make a million bucks a year for 7-10 years (without facing much scrutiny at all). Again, that is just a tough pill to swallow.
    "Don't give up......Don't ever give up." -- Jimmy V

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