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  1. #41

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    So much to say

    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    I was not implying that you started the University of Charlottesville comparison. I was just saying that it probably wasn't the best example to use in this case. Part of the reason Foster has stuck around this long is because of the timing of events. I would be curious to know if he would make the same decisions now as he did back then or if he would have done some things differently (given how the game has changed). I am not suggesting that Foster made any incorrect choices or would change anything. I do believe that Foster and Beamer are cut from the same cloth (in terms of coaching philosophy) and that seemed to be better suited for the 1970s/1980s version of college football, than necessarily today's version of college football.
    Beamer and Foster of the same cloth? Foster has worked for Beamer his entire career. Foster is Beamer's creation. They are absolutely of the same cloth. They are like father and son.

    The griping about coaching salaries has to be done with the recognition that Tech's (and UVa's) coaches are state employees. The governor of Virginia makes 175k, a little more than Tech's position coaches. The coaches are better paid then most of the faculty. It's easy to act like this is the NFL and they can pay whatever they want. Its easy to say Tech should pay Foster and Loeffler a million bucks. But even though the athletic department is "an independent entity", the state of Virginia wouldn't let them pay football coaches a much larger amount then Tech pays a Professor of Engineering, or a state judge.

    Tech not elite? We aren't Alabama. But 20 straight bowl games many ACC and Big East championships. If you think Tech underachieves, imagine what its like to be a Hoo fan.

    All that said, it would speak volumes if Grimes stuck to what he's started here in Blacksburg.

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie1992 View Post
    Beamer and Foster of the same cloth? Foster has worked for Beamer his entire career. Foster is Beamer's creation. They are absolutely of the same cloth. They are like father and son.

    The griping about coaching salaries has to be done with the recognition that Tech's (and UVa's) coaches are state employees. The governor of Virginia makes 175k, a little more than Tech's position coaches. The coaches are better paid then most of the faculty. It's easy to act like this is the NFL and they can pay whatever they want. Its easy to say Tech should pay Foster and Loeffler a million bucks. But even though the athletic department is "an independent entity", the state of Virginia wouldn't let them pay football coaches a much larger amount then Tech pays a Professor of Engineering, or a state judge.

    Tech not elite? We aren't Alabama. But 20 straight bowl games many ACC and Big East championships. If you think Tech underachieves, imagine what its like to be a Hoo fan.

    All that said, it would speak volumes if Grimes stuck to what he's started here in Blacksburg.
    Same cloth meaning the outlook of what it takes to build a successful program. Back in the 1970s and 1980s, marjority of the DI-A schools had the philosophy that a successful program could be built with by having a regional focus (vs. national focus). In fact there were very few programs adopted the national focus. In today's game, more and more programs have switched to a national focus (meaning they are willing to recruit all over the US) and so it is now tougher for a school to use the regrional philosophy and still be successful (i.e. win major bowl games, win national championships, etc). It is very possible that Foster already had that mentality prior to becoming Beamer's DC, so in that regards he was not Beamer's creation. I say that because if he did not have similar views as Beamer, then there is a good chance Beamer may not have even offered Foster the job.

    Yes, VT is not elite. Any comparison to the University of Charlottesville is making an apples to oranges comparison because UVC has not built its reputation as a being a "football school." VT has built its reputation on being a "football school," which means VT should be compared to the other "football schools" from the other conferences. If VT wants to be considered an elite football school, then it has to do the following:

    1. Win national championships.
    2. Win major bowl games.
    3. Win marquee regular season games.
    4. Win non-major bowl games against Power 5 schools.
    5. Win the conference.

    Whether you want to admit it or not, the elite football schools play by a very different set of rules and have a completely different measuring stick to determine who should and should not qualify as an "elite."

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    Its just seems like a never ending stream of excuses and rationalizations while we get fed the illusion of really striving for national prominence.
    What have we been if not a "nationally prominent" program for the last 15 years? The last 2 years have been bad, but it's pretty hard to find a program (even in the "elite" that hasn't had comparable or worse down years).

    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    Like I've said before, the effort isn't on par with the goals. Sorry for the negativity.
    I can buy that it some areas, but I just can't see how assistant salaries are that big of a concern.

    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    Living in Tampa, I get blasted by fsu, Miami, usf and gators non stop about vt being a joke. Yes, I said usf. It builds up sometimes and I strip away the rose colored glasses and see things as they are. Which isn't very hokie of me.
    someone wants to "blast" me for the performance of "my" football team? have at it.

  4. #44
    Senior Member vthokiedsp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylons View Post
    What have we been if not a "nationally prominent" program for the last 15 years? The last 2 years have been bad, but it's pretty hard to find a program (even in the "elite" that hasn't had comparable or worse down years).


    I can buy that it some areas, but I just can't see how assistant salaries are that big of a concern.


    someone wants to "blast" me for the performance of "my" football team? have at it.
    15 years takes us to the Michael Vick days and that period is a little bit of an anomaly due to his exceptional and generational talent. Maybe we are splitting hairs over our personal interpretations of prominence. We had a long streak of 10 win seasons and still have a long string of bowl games which will get us 30 seconds of media facetime but those streaks don't tell the whole story. Those streaks were largely against weaker competition and our bowl record is abysmal. Our past schedules are filled with what turned out to be mediocre wins, uninspiring performances against lower level teams, and losses to big name teams in the spotlight. This is what people outside of VT see of our program (thus the "blasting") so in a sense, our prominence or national importance is riddled with negativity. Even the years where we hung around the top 5 or ended the season in the top 10, for the most part it was fools gold.

    regarding the salaries, to me it's indicative of the program health. it accentuates issues with our fundraising and the general complacency that i see. i definitely understand why you'd see the % difference between FSU and UVA and say it's negligible. It very well may be. I mean, how could we possibly quantify the difference between an assistant making 400k and one making 500k. From my perspective, though, it's a symptom.

    dealing with people talking "smack" is an interesting thing. if you brush it off or ignore it, it almost creates an apathy within myself. if i defend it with my pride and emotion, i find myself grasping at straws. a HOF coach, a bowl streak and a 10 win streak only go so far. i live in tampa/st pete florida. college football is God. it's also an area that collects people from all over the country so fanbases across the country all chime in on their perspective of the cHokies.
    It's not that you are ignorant, it's just that you know so much that isn't so.

  5. #45
    Senior Member NCHokie83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pylons View Post
    What have we been if not a "nationally prominent" program for the last 15 years? The last 2 years have been bad, but it's pretty hard to find a program (even in the "elite" that hasn't had comparable or worse down years).


    I can buy that it some areas, but I just can't see how assistant salaries are that big of a concern.


    someone wants to "blast" me for the performance of "my" football team? have at it.
    I'd say we have been borderline prominent but not quite there. Sure we had a lot of teams that got highly ranked, but we never cracked the Top 2 since that '99 season. Sure, we had PLENTY of opportunities, but we never got there. Programs like Boise, Boston College, and West Virginia rose higher than we ever did during that span, and I would be hard pressed to call any of them nationally prominent. We also lost A LOT of high profile games, numerous by large margins, with painfully few high profile wins.

    If thats what you strive for, to always be that one program thats kind of close but never a serious threat, well then we're getting exactly what we're paying for. But if our administration is serious about EVER filling that empty trophy case, then we are going to eventually have to sack up and start playing by the rules of everyone else. This means we're going to have to drastically expand the Hokie Club fundraising, we're going to have to expand our salary base, and we're going to have to pour MORE money into our facilities. And we're going to have to set a much higher bar on recruiting and on-field performance than we have right now.

    Personally, I want this Athletic Department to strive to be the best. Always bothers me that so many find it acceptable that we're not setting high goals like that. I have never seen a business venture excel when their goals are not to be the best, but to just be recognized.
    "I love it when you guys try to write off a Frank Beamer team -- no one is going to win this conference without Virginia Tech having some sort of say in it." - David Cutcliffe

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    15 years takes us to the Michael Vick days and that period is a little bit of an anomaly due to his exceptional and generational talent. Maybe we are splitting hairs over our personal interpretations of prominence. We had a long streak of 10 win seasons and still have a long string of bowl games which will get us 30 seconds of media facetime but those streaks don't tell the whole story. Those streaks were largely against weaker competition and our bowl record is abysmal. Our past schedules are filled with what turned out to be mediocre wins, uninspiring performances against lower level teams, and losses to big name teams in the spotlight. This is what people outside of VT see of our program (thus the "blasting") so in a sense, our prominence or national importance is riddled with negativity. Even the years where we hung around the top 5 or ended the season in the top 10, for the most part it was fools gold.
    well, I guess the bottom line is that whether you call it "prominent," "pretty good," "mediocre," or whatever else, you seem frustrated by it and I'm pretty happy with it. Give me 15-20 years moving forward that mirror the 15-20 years passed and I think I will have had 3-4 decades of VT football enjoyment.

    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    regarding the salaries, to me it's indicative of the program health.
    I agree, but it's kind of a correlation/causation thing. It's hard to know to what extent high salaries lead to good health vs. good health leading to high salaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    i definitely understand why you'd see the % difference between FSU and UVA and say it's negligible. It very well may be. I mean, how could we possibly quantify the difference between an assistant making 400k and one making 500k. From my perspective, though, it's a symptom.
    I don't even necessarily need to go to "negligible," my point is that it seems illogical to me to say "we can't be serious about being elite at this salary level" when the current national champ is ~10% above us.

    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    dealing with people talking "smack" is an interesting thing. if you brush it off or ignore it, it almost creates an apathy within myself. if i defend it with my pride and emotion, i find myself grasping at straws. a HOF coach, a bowl streak and a 10 win streak only go so far. i live in tampa/st pete florida. college football is God. it's also an area that collects people from all over the country so fanbases across the country all chime in on their perspective of the cHokies.
    I guess I just don't take it personally. I can have a sliver of influence through my donatations, attendance, etc., but VT's football success just isn't really a reflection of me.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHokie83 View Post
    If thats what you strive for, to always be that one program thats kind of close but never a serious threat, well then we're getting exactly what we're paying for. But if our administration is serious about EVER filling that empty trophy case, then we are going to eventually have to sack up and start playing by the rules of everyone else. This means we're going to have to drastically expand the Hokie Club fundraising, we're going to have to expand our salary base, and we're going to have to pour MORE money into our facilities. And we're going to have to set a much higher bar on recruiting and on-field performance than we have right now.
    so how do you explain FSU this year? national championship on $2.8 million of asst. salaries?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCHokie83 View Post
    Personally, I want this Athletic Department to strive to be the best. Always bothers me that so many find it acceptable that we're not setting high goals like that. I have never seen a business venture excel when their goals are not to be the best, but to just be recognized.
    well, "best" means different things to different people, just like "elite" and "prominent" do.

    how much do we have to pay our assistants for you to be comfortable that we're "striving to be the best"?

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Pylons View Post
    well, "best" means different things to different people, just like "elite" and "prominent" do.

    how much do we have to pay our assistants for you to be comfortable that we're "striving to be the best"?
    Even though what you say is true, you have to realize that perception is nothing more than a game with potential benefits. If VT feels the benefits are worth it, then it will have to play the game by whatever rules have been established. In this particular case, the media establishes the rules since the amount of coverage they provide a program essentially define whether it is elite or not. If VT feels the benefits are not worth it, then it doesn't have to play the game. However, it still needs to accept whatever consequences may come from the decision. The amount of coverage I am referring to isn't based just on the number of games that are televised. It helps, but not nearly as helpful as coverage provided during the week or offseason. I mean the number of times the program is mentioned on SportsCenter/local news or talked about in the various sports shows (i.e. College Football Live). Also, when a show is talking a recruit, then the number of times the program is mention. For example if a recruit has narrowed his finalist down to 3 schools, then does the analyst talk about all 3 schools or only talk about a partial list? When a station televises an all-star high school and participants declare on TV where they will be attending school next year, then how many times do people see a VT hat on the table? Even though it would be nice if the kid picks VT, just being on the table is good publicity for future classes. You never know when a future recruit is sitting at home watching the game may get the idea to consider VT because he saw the VT hat.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    Even though what you say is true, you have to realize that perception is nothing more than a game with potential benefits. If VT feels the benefits are worth it, then it will have to play the game by whatever rules have been established. In this particular case, the media establishes the rules since the amount of coverage they provide a program essentially define whether it is elite or not. If VT feels the benefits are not worth it, then it doesn't have to play the game. However, it still needs to accept whatever consequences may come from the decision. The amount of coverage I am referring to isn't based just on the number of games that are televised. It helps, but not nearly as helpful as coverage provided during the week or offseason. I mean the number of times the program is mentioned on SportsCenter/local news or talked about in the various sports shows (i.e. College Football Live). Also, when a show is talking a recruit, then the number of times the program is mention. For example if a recruit has narrowed his finalist down to 3 schools, then does the analyst talk about all 3 schools or only talk about a partial list? When a station televises an all-star high school and participants declare on TV where they will be attending school next year, then how many times do people see a VT hat on the table? Even though it would be nice if the kid picks VT, just being on the table is good publicity for future classes. You never know when a future recruit is sitting at home watching the game may get the idea to consider VT because he saw the VT hat.
    you're going to have to help me with how that connects with what I was talking about

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Pylons View Post
    you're going to have to help me with how that connects with what I was talking about
    You made the statement that certain words are subjective (i.e. best, elite, etc) depending on the context (which is true). However, in the context of defining whether a program is elite or not, the only opinion that matters is the media's opinion. The media's opinion can have a great influence on how other coaches and potential recruits see a program. If a program is viewed as an elite program, then a coach may be willing to accept a job there for less money because he knows it will open up more doors for him down the road. Also, he will be given more opportunities to coach the elite players, which will keep his name in the spotlight (directly and indirectly) through the coverage of the player. Likewise, if a program is not viewed as an elite, then it may be forced to overpay a coach to compensate for the view of the program.

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