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  1. #11
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    I agree with this. ND needs Navy football only. For the basketball and olympic sports, Georgetown is an obvious choice in my opinion. it has a tradition, reputation, and good Lax team. It's also a catholic school and ACC will have all three major catholic schools.

    I also agree that ND fans value its independence status than the actual scheduling. We have to give them some time to accept that ND is losing its unique status...


    Quote Originally Posted by TJ was Broke View Post
    I expressed this sentiment in another thread and got some understandable heat for it, but I think Navy would be a tremendous football-only addition to the ACC. There are numerous phenomenal options for a 16th all-but-football member (Georgetown, George Washington, Villanova, etc.). Navy is probably on par with...I don't know, Wake Forest/UVa/Duke/Syracuse in any given year in football, and adding the 16th member in all but football would probably up the quality of ACC basketball even more (or perhaps the ACC could just drop VT basketball...haha). Navy is probably a downgrade overall in football; however, my point in the other thread was that while Navy is a downgrade it would be worth the tradeoff to get Notre Dame into the conference in football--it would be a net positive trade in football. Add in a basketball program like Georgetown or Villanova and you've got a major upgrade in the conference overall.

    I think the 7-game (including Navy) option would be palatable to Notre Dame, although what I think Notre Dame values even more than its schedule is marketing its independence--I think at its core Notre Dame fans, alumni, students, administration, and faculty simply recoil at the idea of being associated with a conference. So I think it's more than just the schedule.

    As an aside, despite what our various opinions are on the topic, I think the ACC would pretty much fall all over itself at Notre Dame + Navy football-only with an 8-game schedule. But I'm doubtful that there would be support for Notre Dame with a 7-game schedule as a full member (that gets to play for the ACC title).

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melbourne Hokie View Post
    I'm pretty sure it does as the NCAA rules seem to need two divisional contenders to play for a playoff. More than two (ie pods) would be explicitly prohibited!
    My understanding is that pods are just component of division. Pod system is just how to construct each division. For example,

    year1.

    Coastal Atlantic
    pod1 pod2
    pod3 pod 4

    year 2
    coastal atlantic
    pod1 pod3
    pod2 pod4

    year 3
    coastal atlantic
    pod1 pod2
    pod4 pod4

    Each year, the coastal champion will play atlantic champion as before. In other words, NCAA would see only two divisions. We just change teams within divisions each year. Maybe i'm mikstaken...but that's my understanding.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ was Broke View Post
    I don't really agree with your point here. The ACC already has a partial member--Notre Dame. By adding Navy in football-only you'd be adding Notre Dame as a FULL member (eliminating their partial-member status) and adding Navy as a partial-member while picking up a basketball power as an all-but-football addition. It's really an even trade that could not realistically expand to the point of the Big East where half the members didn't play football. With a 16-team limit, having partial members is capped at 2, unlike with the Big East which could have almost an infinite number of partial members.
    I'd rather give full membership to a school like UConn or Cincinnati than partial membership to a basketball school like Georgetown. The SEC, Big 10, Pac 12, and Big 12 have full member only schools for football and men's basketball (the only 2 money making sports). I'd like to see the ACC go that way too. They did for over 50 years. I think Georgetown would be better served as a member of the Big East.

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by acis111 View Post
    My understanding is that pods are just component of division. Pod system is just how to construct each division. For example,

    year1.

    Coastal Atlantic
    pod1 pod2
    pod3 pod 4

    year 2
    coastal atlantic
    pod1 pod3
    pod2 pod4

    year 3
    coastal atlantic
    pod1 pod2
    pod4 pod4

    Each year, the coastal champion will play atlantic champion as before. In other words, NCAA would see only two divisions. We just change teams within divisions each year. Maybe i'm mikstaken...but that's my understanding.
    Your understanding is correct. I do wonder is whether the schools and their fans embrace this model? Or would everyone have difficulty keeping track who is in what division in a given year? If the schools embrace the pod model, then would they insist that every pod must play an equal amount of time under both division names or would they embrace that each division has 1 flagship pod (a pod that never switches division)? I would think that most would be against a flagship pod (assuming it wouldn't be their pod) because not everyone would get to equally share the "joys" (aka headaches) of trying to advertise to a confused fan base. The one benefit to having permanent divisions is a conference can build divisional identities and divisional rivalries because everyone will know their team will play the same divisional foes year after year. The WAC tried rotating pods and ultimately failed or at least 1 of the reasons the 8 schools broke away to form the Mountain West. Could history repeat itself?

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Line Hokie View Post
    I'd rather give full membership to a school like UConn or Cincinnati than partial membership to a basketball school like Georgetown. The SEC, Big 10, Pac 12, and Big 12 have full member only schools for football and men's basketball (the only 2 money making sports). I'd like to see the ACC go that way too. They did for over 50 years. I think Georgetown would be better served as a member of the Big East.
    I'd rather give full membership to a program like Texas or Penn State, although neither is realistic today. If we're going to add programs to get to 16 then it would be a terrible mistake to further dilute the ACC football brand with an also-ran in Cincinnati or UCONN that have no national appeal whatsoever. Navy at least has national appeal in all 50 states.

    If we're going to add a 16th team for full membership we might as well wait out the demise of the Big XII and pick up a program like Texas or Kansas that are major national brands, or a program like WVU that would reunite 2 major rivalries in Pittsburgh and Virginia Tech and a minor rivalry in WVU-FSU. Cincinnati and UCONN are cold fish.

    Anyway, the debate is academic--Notre Dame would never in a million years join the ACC to be placed in a pod with UCONN--there is absolutely no appeal in that whatsoever. So the argument about what we prefer is academic. Notre Dame MIGHT join the ACC at some point in the future with Navy and another Catholic school. ND has no reason whatsoever to join the ACC with UCONN and then to join its pod. It's not a logical proposition.
    Last edited by TJ was Broke; Mon Dec 30 2013 at 05:33 PM.

  6. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TJ was Broke View Post
    I'd rather give full membership to a program like Texas or Penn State, although neither is realistic today. If we're going to add programs to get to 16 then it would be a terrible mistake to further dilute the ACC football brand with an also-ran in Cincinnati or UCONN that have no national appeal whatsoever. Navy at least has national appeal in all 50 states.

    If we're going to add a 16th team for full membership we might as well wait out the demise of the Big XII and pick up a program like Texas or Kansas that are major national brands, or a program like WVU that would reunite 2 major rivalries in Pittsburgh and Virginia Tech and a minor rivalry in WVU-FSU. Cincinnati and UCONN are cold fish.

    Anyway, the debate is academic--Notre Dame would never in a million years join the ACC to be placed in a pod with UCONN--there is absolutely no appeal in that whatsoever. So the argument about what we prefer is academic. Notre Dame MIGHT join the ACC at some point in the future with Navy and another Catholic school. ND has no reason whatsoever to join the ACC with UCONN and then to join its pod. It's not a logical proposition.
    UConn does have 1 selling point that might appeal to Notre Dame. UConn would give Notre Dame another game (aka access) to NYC market. I believe UConn even moved 1 of its home games against Notre Dame to the Meadowlands. The other games I think got cancelled when Notre Dame joined the ACC as a partial member.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by TJ was Broke View Post
    You can't really "just add UCONN". Why would Notre Dame join the ACC to play UCONN every year only to have to possibly drop a long-standing rival? How in the world would you get support for UCONN from the southern football powers, particularly FSU, Clemson, Georgia Tech and, quite frankly, Virginia Tech?

    Even if ND didn't have to drop a rival, what would possibly be its motivation for joining under this scenario? And why should UCONN disproportionately benefit from conference affiliation while everyone else has to re-arrange their schedules?

    What you've put forth is not a reasonable scenario.
    Well, everybody else in college football might just tell ND it has to join a conference, and as I explained, ND would still be able to easily fill out a schedule with its usual rivals. They could play 7 conference games, their 3 usual rivals, and have 2 entire games to work with OOC. And BTW, ND is wanting to play more and more on the East coast. There's a large catholic population in Conn obviously, and it's situated smack dab in the middle of Boston and NYC. Why would ND NOT want to play them? They could probably work out an agreement to play UCONN's home games in Foxborough if need be?

  8. #18

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    While I appreciate the out of the box thinking here... I am against most of the recommended solutions:

    1) Add Navy as a full member. Against it. I have great respect for the service academies, but as an athletic partner, they are far behind a full ACC in just about every sport. It would weaken the conference and put Navy on a path that would be very difficult to sustain.

    2) Add Navy for football only and add Georgetown (or someone like them) for all other sports. I am totally against this. The addition of Navy for football only weakens the football product. Yes, they can likely compete with Wake and Duke... but the ACC does not need any more teams like this. Also, adding another triple option team is simply a pain in the butt to prepare for and could likely trip up some good teams. Even worse... adding a non-FB member like Georgetown is the Big East all over again. No, No, A Thousand Times No! Never again should we subject ourselves to the whims of any program that does not play football. Ugh!

    I would love to see ND join... but only if they want to join. I don't want any member that thinks the ACC is Plan B or Plan C. Once ND starts playing ACC teams regularly... if they like the rivalries and if they feel the conference is better for them then remaining independent... then welcome them in. If not, the ACC can be a happy place playing them in FB every 3 years.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckd4vt View Post
    Well, everybody else in college football might just tell ND it has to join a conference, and as I explained, ND would still be able to easily fill out a schedule with its usual rivals. They could play 7 conference games, their 3 usual rivals, and have 2 entire games to work with OOC. And BTW, ND is wanting to play more and more on the East coast. There's a large catholic population in Conn obviously, and it's situated smack dab in the middle of Boston and NYC. Why would ND NOT want to play them? They could probably work out an agreement to play UCONN's home games in Foxborough if need be?
    ND and UConn don't have a great relationship. UConn wouldn't be our choice to join if we picked.

  10. #20

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    Thanks. I'm liking my "7 conference games that count" suggestion more and more. It would provide ND a reasonable amount of games to play and maintain its OOC rivalries, and it would also allow 5 games worth of flexibility for any rivalry type games within the league to continue to exist even if those aren't played for the position in the ACCCG. Like I stated, VT-Miami, Clemson-NC ST, UVA-UNC, etc. could all still agree to play each other even when they are not required to for the league championship. Furthermore, EVERY ACC team would cycle through a home and home every six seasons, which is quite reasonable IMO.

    And oh...UConn is a great add by the ACC in every single way EXCEPT football prestige. Awesome bball, fan support, nearby media markets and ACC level academics. ND would LOVE playing them away each year too, especially if they could play the game in NYC or Boston.

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