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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    One time I accidentially found in the NCAA bylaws (searching for something else at the time) that the NCAA does not allow a regular season game to be played after a CCG. So most likely that will force the Army-Navy game to be moved back to Thanksgiving weekend.
    I thought I heard something recently about that too...I think you are right. The game used to be played I believe the weekend either before or after Thanksgiving. If this happens I would like to see it the weekend before since there are so many big games the weekend after Thanksgiving.

  2. #22
    PadrosWindup's Avatar
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    Once the game is moved back into Thanksgiving weekend, it has to compete with a lot of more entertaining football. Doubt the game will bring the same ratings it gets as the only game played the second week of December.

    Also, how to handle Army and Navy basketball in the ACC? Even VT will feast on them, almost as badly as Cuse, UNC,and Duke will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stech View Post
    I thought I heard something recently about that too...I think you are right. The game used to be played I believe the weekend either before or after Thanksgiving. If this happens I would like to see it the weekend before since there are so many big games the weekend after Thanksgiving.
    BCS level college football is a resource war, not a morality play.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by PadrosWindup View Post
    Once the game is moved back into Thanksgiving weekend, it has to compete with a lot of more entertaining football. Doubt the game will bring the same ratings it gets as the only game played the second week of December.

    Also, how to handle Army and Navy basketball in the ACC? Even VT will feast on them, almost as badly as Cuse, UNC,and Duke will.
    The competitive issue is one of the reasons Army has publicly stated it is quite happy remaining in the Patriot League. Even though Army and Navy are federally funded, they behave more like a small private school which is the profile of the other Patriot League members (even partial member Georgetown). Assuming the rumors are true about William and Mary wanting to leave the CAA for the Patriot League, The Tribe would be the first "public school" to join as a full member. I use the term "public school" loosely because up until 1905 William and Mary was a private school and in many ways still operates with a small private school mindset.

    The interesting thing will be if DoD and the schools don't want the same thing. For example DoD wants Army and Navy to join the ACC as full members, but the schools only want to become football-only members. Another interesting scenario would be if Dod, Army, and Navy all want the same thing, but it doesn't align with the ACC's desires. If the ACC wants them to join as full members, but they want to only join as football-only members, then could Congress and/or any state governments get involved in the discussions?

    The only reason I raise that question is because I can see things potentially getting very political when it comes to dealing with the service academies. If the Power 5 form their own subdivision, then it would not shock me if the Mountain West (because of Air Force's membership) becomes the de facto #6 conference with Army and Navy ending up in the ACC. If you think about it, it could be one reason why the AAC asked Navy to join as a football-only member. Not only would the conference be able to hold a CCG, but it should mean a seat at the power table since Congress/DoD will not allow the services academies to be left out in the cold. Whether the service academies should be included is a whole another debate; which the AAC, Mountain West, and whomever ends up with Army may not realy about because they are more interested in surviving and making sure their revenue stream does not dry up.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    The competitive issue is one of the reasons Army has publicly stated it is quite happy remaining in the Patriot League. Even though Army and Navy are federally funded, they behave more like a small private school which is the profile of the other Patriot League members (even partial member Georgetown). Assuming the rumors are true about William and Mary wanting to leave the CAA for the Patriot League, The Tribe would be the first "public school" to join as a full member. I use the term "public school" loosely because up until 1905 William and Mary was a private school and in many ways still operates with a small private school mindset.

    The interesting thing will be if DoD and the schools don't want the same thing. For example DoD wants Army and Navy to join the ACC as full members, but the schools only want to become football-only members. Another interesting scenario would be if Dod, Army, and Navy all want the same thing, but it doesn't align with the ACC's desires. If the ACC wants them to join as full members, but they want to only join as football-only members, then could Congress and/or any state governments get involved in the discussions?

    The only reason I raise that question is because I can see things potentially getting very political when it comes to dealing with the service academies. If the Power 5 form their own subdivision, then it would not shock me if the Mountain West (because of Air Force's membership) becomes the de facto #6 conference with Army and Navy ending up in the ACC. If you think about it, it could be one reason why the AAC asked Navy to join as a football-only member. Not only would the conference be able to hold a CCG, but it should mean a seat at the power table since Congress/DoD will not allow the services academies to be left out in the cold. Whether the service academies should be included is a whole another debate; which the AAC, Mountain West, and whomever ends up with Army may not realy about because they are more interested in surviving and making sure their revenue stream does not dry up.
    Before the ACC decided to replace Maryland with Louisville, I threw out an outside-the-box suggestion that we essentially pair Notre Dame and Navy to be one FULL member as the Maryland replacement -- Notre Dame comes in for all sports but football, while Navy come in JUST for football and stays in the Patriot League -- which doesn't have football -- for everything else.

    I think too many people here see the "partial membership" thing as bad because it WAS bad when it was applied to Virginia Tech. But the big -- huge, actually -- difference is that we didn't WANT to be partial. That's why it was an issue. If there are teams that WANT partial membership, then it can very well be workable.

    I think by doing this, we would have all but secured Notre Dame as a full member -- including football -- in the very near future. When they were ready to join in full we would have our pick of teams to join with them to get to 16 -- who wouldn't want to come into the conference at the same time as Notre Dame? That would have given us 16 in football but just 15 in the other big sports, which actually isn't a big deal since none of them use divisions.

    I think you're right in that Army and Navy football will be protected when/if The Big One hits. Given Notre Dame's unique ties to Navy, I think the ACC will end up as the final destination anyway.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nova Hokie 95 View Post
    Before the ACC decided to replace Maryland with Louisville, I threw out an outside-the-box suggestion that we essentially pair Notre Dame and Navy to be one FULL member as the Maryland replacement -- Notre Dame comes in for all sports but football, while Navy come in JUST for football and stays in the Patriot League -- which doesn't have football -- for everything else.

    I think too many people here see the "partial membership" thing as bad because it WAS bad when it was applied to Virginia Tech. But the big -- huge, actually -- difference is that we didn't WANT to be partial. That's why it was an issue. If there are teams that WANT partial membership, then it can very well be workable.

    I think by doing this, we would have all but secured Notre Dame as a full member -- including football -- in the very near future. When they were ready to join in full we would have our pick of teams to join with them to get to 16 -- who wouldn't want to come into the conference at the same time as Notre Dame? That would have given us 16 in football but just 15 in the other big sports, which actually isn't a big deal since none of them use divisions.

    I think you're right in that Army and Navy football will be protected when/if The Big One hits. Given Notre Dame's unique ties to Navy, I think the ACC will end up as the final destination anyway.
    The Patriot League does sponsor football. Currently the Patriot League participates in DI-FCS non-scholarship football and has 7 members. Although I believe the conference decided to switch to limited scholarships (30 or 35 out of 63) starting next year.

    Lehigh - full member
    Lafayette - full member
    Bucknell - full member
    Holy Cross - full member
    Colgate - full member
    Fordham - partial member *ineligible for conference championship because it has scholarships
    Georgetown - partial member *eligible for conference championship because it doesn't have scholarships

    http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    The Patriot League does sponsor football. Currently the Patriot League participates in DI-FCS non-scholarship football and has 7 members. Although I believe the conference decided to switch to limited scholarships (30 or 35 out of 63) starting next year.

    Lehigh - full member
    Lafayette - full member
    Bucknell - full member
    Holy Cross - full member
    Colgate - full member
    Fordham - partial member *ineligible for conference championship because it has scholarships
    Georgetown - partial member *eligible for conference championship because it doesn't have scholarships

    http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/
    They may have "football" but they don't have football. As in, for the purposes of this discussion which revolves around Army and Navy.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Nova Hokie 95 View Post
    They may have "football" but they don't have football. As in, for the purposes of this discussion which revolves around Army and Navy.
    I don't see the difference. The Patriot League champion gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs, so it isn't like the conference is excluded in the subdivision. Army, Navy, and Air Force are exempt from the 85 scholarship rule because they are service academies. So they could participate in any DI subdivision with minimal impact to the program itself. In terms of TV revenue, I am not sure any of that goes directly back to the school anyways (meaning it remains with the school to be used as they see fit). It may ultimately end back with Congress and the schools are merely acting as a pass-thru.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by VTHokie2000 View Post
    I don't see the difference. The Patriot League champion gets an automatic bid to the FCS Playoffs, so it isn't like the conference is excluded in the subdivision. Army, Navy, and Air Force are exempt from the 85 scholarship rule because they are service academies. So they could participate in any DI subdivision with minimal impact to the program itself. In terms of TV revenue, I am not sure any of that goes directly back to the school anyways (meaning it remains with the school to be used as they see fit). It may ultimately end back with Congress and the schools are merely acting as a pass-thru.
    The difference is that Army and Navy play FOOTBALL, so they're not going to start playing "football" all of a sudden. Any talk about FCS is a moot point.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nova Hokie 95 View Post
    The difference is that Army and Navy play FOOTBALL, so they're not going to start playing "football" all of a sudden. Any talk about FCS is a moot point.
    If your kind of FOOTBALL means losing to a FCS school 23-3 (Army vs. Stony Brook), then I will take "football" any day of the week. I disagree that talking about FCS schools is a moot point when it comes to the services academies because no one knows how everything will shake out if/when the Power 5 conferences decide they want to be in their own subdivision. It is very possible that the remaining non-power conferences may decide there is not enough of them to warrant having their own subdivision which could lead to a merger with the entire or part of the FCS schools. If DoD/Congress decides it isn't worth it for the services academies to participate with the power conferences, then they will be associated with the group that merges with the FCS schools.

  10. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by PadrosWindup View Post
    Once the game is moved back into Thanksgiving weekend, it has to compete with a lot of more entertaining football. Doubt the game will bring the same ratings it gets as the only game played the second week of December.

    Also, how to handle Army and Navy basketball in the ACC? Even VT will feast on them, almost as badly as Cuse, UNC,and Duke will.
    WADR, again the weekend before Thanksgiving so not nearly as much competition that weekend and you are grossly under rating the people that served in the Army and Navy that watch this game in the states and abroad. You are also grossly under estimating how much this game means to people serving in both branches and what that means to some very influential and powerful people in this country.

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