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  1. #101
    OrangeHokieFan's Avatar
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    How long did it take Greenberg to turn things around? I mean deleted by TSL Staff but that was with a NCAA tourney bid AND win in his fourth year. He had us in the NIt by his second year. JJ isn't on pace for that.
    Quote Originally Posted by NCHokie83 View Post
    Duke was the reigning ACC Champs coming off an Elite 8 appearance when Bill Foster retired and they hired Coach K. This was also 2 years removed from a NCAA Championship Game appearance. And even with that said, and all the incredible momentum Duke had when they hired Coach K, they tanked it the next 3 seasons before Coach K got things back under control and made them who they are now.

    I keep seeing this comparison made all the time on here. Coach K walked into an already name program with an established history that just couldn't get over the hump. Bill Foster was a great coach for the Devils, and Coach K continued the momentum he built and now Duke is where they are. The team was already at an incredibly high level when he got there. He didn't have to rebuild anything. Those of you comparing JJ to Coach K are expecting JJ to do things that even the hall of fame quite possibly the best coach of our generarion never had to do. Thats a completely and utterly unfair comparison thats expecting the impossible out of JJ.
    Last edited by Will Stewart; Thu Dec 26 2013 at 01:01 PM.

  2. #102
    Will Stewart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeHokieFan View Post
    How long did it take Greenberg to turn things around? deleted that was with a NCAA tourney bid AND win in his fourth year. He had us in the NIt by his second year. JJ isn't on pace for that.
    Whoa, that's enough. You've already got one ding on your record. Settle down.
    Always use "Reply With Quote", so everyone knows to whom you're responding.

  3. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHokie83 View Post
    Lets not pretend that we didn't give the committee plenty of ammo to reason their way into leaving us out year after year. We had BAD losses each and every year that held us down. Like, unfathomable no excuses kind of losses. Yes, we had those late season wins, but if you're also dropping games against teams in the 200 RPI or even playing them to the buzzer, you really don't have THAT much room to complain when you're left out. Especially when some of those bad losses were immediately following some of those big wins. You can say what you want about the teams with big names always making it in, but those teams just don't lose those kinds of games. They routinely take care of business. I mean heck, even in the one year we did go to the tournament, we had a chance to clinch the ACC regular season title at home in the last game of the year, and we choked against a bad Clemson team that finished the ACC regular season with a losing record, dropping us down to the 4 seed in the ACC Tournament.
    Not to nitpick your post, but I think that was actually a pretty decent Clemson team. They opened the year 17-0 (3-0 in the ACC). From that point they fell apart a little bit and only won 3 of their next 12 games, but they were still 20-9 (6-9) heading into our game. They finished T-8th in a 7-bid ACC and went on to lose to WVU in the NIT championship game. It was a crushing, last-second loss...but not a choke to a bad team.

    Additionally, I believe we were the 3 seed, as I think we played the 11 seed (Wake after upsetting GT) and the 10 seed (NC St after upsetting Duke and UVa) in the ACC tournament.

  4. #104
    Femoyer Hokie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GCHokie34 View Post
    None of those coaches would ever come to Blacksburg. Each of those coaches have received pay (and will garner that type of pay again) equal to, or in the ballpark of, what Frank Beamer makes at VT. Now, that raises a couple issues. Could any AD get away with paying a basketball coach the same amount you pay your high-profile football coach at a "football school"? and even if you could theoretically get away with it, could VT even afford it? a bball coach in the millions means assistants in the upper-half of the hundred thousands. So you're actually talking about paying close to $2 Million more than what VT is currently paying.

    Next lies the problem of, "if VT is offering Coach ShakaPearlWeberMarshall ~$1 Million, and (school X with basketball tradition in an environment more conducive to winning) is offering him something similar, he's taking the route that better sets him up for long-term success" (i.e. not VT)

    This means that VT has to outbid the expectations of what the coach thinks he is worth (or what the market suggests). Something VT hasn't exactly been willing to do. VT's best bet is to hire a top assistant and overpay for him a small bit. It's a huge gamble, because the move 1 seat to the left is the toughest one a coach can make, so you never really know how guys will handle it. But if the gamble pays off, you could see relative success in the basketball program again, and then if another under-the-radar guy like Stephen Curry came along and it broke in our favor, you could see a next level success. The problem will always be sustained success though. And that will be more elusive, as the conference (already one of the toughest) gets tougher, and recruiting gets harder.

    FWIW, I've always thought the move should have been to hire Mike Rhodes from VCU. It will be interesting to track the success of the program once he leaves for a bigger job. And it will be interesting to see what Rhodes is like after he moves one seat to the left...
    I know I am adding nothing, but good post.

  5. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by NCHokie83 View Post
    Lets not pretend that we didn't give the committee plenty of ammo to reason their way into leaving us out year after year. We had BAD losses each and every year that held us down. Like, unfathomable no excuses kind of losses. Yes, we had those late season wins, but if you're also dropping games against teams in the 200 RPI or even playing them to the buzzer, you really don't have THAT much room to complain when you're left out. Especially when some of those bad losses were immediately following some of those big wins. You can say what you want about the teams with big names always making it in, but those teams just don't lose those kinds of games. They routinely take care of business. I mean heck, even in the one year we did go to the tournament, we had a chance to clinch the ACC regular season title at home in the last game of the year, and we choked against a bad Clemson team that finished the ACC regular season with a losing record, dropping us down to the 4 seed in the ACC Tournament.
    Add to that the push for more mid-major teams that weakened the "bubble" even more for marginal teams like VT.
    "That's some catch, that Catch 22!" - Capt. Yossarian

  6. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC Hoke View Post
    I had the same exact beef. That loss to BC was the one that did it for me with Greenberg. I feel that firing him at the end of that season would have been the right timing.
    As with you, that game finished me with Seth. Another thing, though, that's seldom mentioned these days is the wholesale staff defections he was experiencing, especially in his final season. Something there was badly wrong.

  7. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by VT Noslen View Post
    As with you, that game finished me with Seth. Another thing, though, that's seldom mentioned these days is the wholesale staff defections he was experiencing, especially in his final season. Something there was badly wrong.
    That was what did me in. Once Brad Greenberg left, it's like everyone else was out the door behind him. I almost wonder if at times, Brad helped play something of a buffer role between Seth and the other assistants. Odom was in Blacksburg for 6 years.... and then he leaves... for a role at Charlotte (and not the Bobcats). Autry left for a role at friggin Dayton... DAYTON (he just happened to end up at Syracuse that offseason... but had originally left for Dayton). Richardson left to go back to ODU.

    Something was seriously wrong those last few years.

  8. #108
    IB4TECH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VTECHFAN View Post
    That was what did me in. Once Brad Greenberg left, it's like everyone else was out the door behind him. I almost wonder if at times, Brad helped play something of a buffer role between Seth and the other assistants. Odom was in Blacksburg for 6 years.... and then he leaves... for a role at Charlotte (and not the Bobcats). Autry left for a role at friggin Dayton... DAYTON (he just happened to end up at Syracuse that offseason... but had originally left for Dayton). Richardson left to go back to ODU.

    Something was seriously wrong those last few years.
    I seem to remember something said that Brad was indeed a buffer.
    "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

    -Albert Einstein

  9. #109

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    Quote Originally Posted by StealYourFaceVT View Post
    I never really looked into it/asked about it but I was talking with a friend last night about it and got curious. His theory was missing out on both Curry boys pissed the wrong people off. I really don't even remember if their was an official reason behind it, but I figured people on here would know more about the situation.
    The bottom line is that Seth Greenberg, while undeniably a very good basketball coach and a tireless worker, was an abrasive, abusive ass who simply rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including his players. When his brother was with him at VT, he had a calming effect on Seth. But when he left to take the Radford job, that buffer was removed.

    It wasn't any one single thing that Seth did. I was an accumulation of a lot of little things over time. By the time Weaver let him go, half of the athletic department couldn't stand to be in the same room with him.

    Had Greenberg not been fired, it's highly likely that many of the best players on last year's team, including Erick Green, would have transferred.

    Back when Delaney, Allen et al were at VT and VT was pulling upsets over the likes of UNC and Duke, I had the chance to talk to someone close to the program. I was gushing about what a great coach I thought Seth was and my contact said to me, "Yeah, but his players absolutely HATE the guy!" This was the first I'd heard about there being problems within the program. Remember what Jeff Allen tweeted on the day Seth was fired? "It's about time."

    I think the final straw came when James Johnson and John Richardson left the program for other jobs. (Remember what JJ said when he left VT to take an assistant coaching position at Clemson that paid almost the same as he was making at VT? "It's not about the money.") I was told by my source that Jim Weaver was getting absolutely ZERO interest from any quality replacement candidates. The word was now out about what Seth was like to work for and nobody wanted to come to VT to work for him.

    IMHO, Jim Weaver had absolutely no choice but to fire Seth. The program was getting ready to totally implode unless something was done. VT fans tend to forget that Seth had a losing record his last year at VT. The talent well had run dry, no assistants wanted to come here, the 2013 recruiting class was on the verge of being a total wipeout, and nearly half the team was on the verge of transferring.

  10. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokiestud View Post

    IMHO, Jim Weaver had absolutely no choice but to fire Seth. The program was getting ready to totally implode unless something was done. VT fans tend to forget that Seth had a losing record his last year at VT. The talent well had run dry, no assistants wanted to come here, the 2013 recruiting class was on the verge of being a total wipeout, and nearly half the team was on the verge of transferring.
    If that had happened, we probably would have finished last in 2012-2013 and be on track for another finish at the bottom of the conference this year. Good save by Jim Weaver!

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