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  1. #1
    Calamitous's Avatar
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    ACC's eastern public university options since 2004...

    Since 2004, the ACC has added Virginia Tech, Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Louisville in all sports with Notre Dame as a partial member. Only Tech and Louisville are among the public schools on that list with Pitt being a State related school.

    Just for fun, lets say the ACC went on a mission to only take public universities. This means the ACC never added Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse or Pittsburgh in ALL sports before 2011-12. That would also mean the ACC would only have had 10 schools (with only the addition of Tech) in 2011-12 before Maryland bolted for the B1G. Assuming Maryland still leaves in 2012, which 5 public schools east of the Mississippi should the ACC have added from the list below to get to 14 members:

    Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rutgers, Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Akron, Bowling Green State, Kent State, Miami (OH), Ohio, Toledo, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Ball State, Northern Illinois, Temple, Navy, West Virginia, Marshall, Old Dominion, East Carolina, UNC Charlotte, Appalachian State, Middle Tennessee, Memphis, Louisville, Western Kentucky, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Troy, South Alabama, Alabama Birmingham, Southern Mississippi, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, South Florida and Central Florida. Note, Pittsburgh is State-related but still considered semi-private and did not make my list.

    To me, only UConn, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Louisville and West Virginia seem to make the "big boy" cut. UConn is probably the best one of the group in terms of winning National Titles and being the typical large Land Grant University. Lousiville is the sexy pick these days as they seem to be winning a lot... but will that streak maintain in all other sports not named basketball? Rutgers and Cincinatti are ample but nothing to get excited about. WVU isn't a bad choice athletically IMHO. So are the 5 schools I picked better than Miami, BC, Syracuse, Pitt (and Notre Dame if you really want to count them)?

    This assumes the ACC doesn't have the ability to poach the B1G or SEC as well.
    Last edited by Calamitous; Sat Jul 06 2013 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Hokie CPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    Since 2004, the ACC has added Virginia Tech, Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Louisville in all sports with Notre Dame as a partial member. Only Tech and Louisville are among the public schools on that list with Pitt being a State related school.

    Just for fun, lets say the ACC went on a mission to only take public universities. This means the ACC never added Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse or Pittsburgh in ALL sports before 2011-12. That would also mean the ACC would only have had 10 schools (with only the addition of Tech) in 2011-12 before Maryland bolted for the B1G. Assuming Maryland still leaves in 2012, which 5 public schools east of the Mississippi should the ACC have added from the list below to get to 14 members:

    Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rutgers, Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Akron, Bowling Green State, Kent State, Miami (OH), Ohio, Toledo, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Ball State, Northern Illinois, Temple, Navy, Marshall, Old Dominion, East Carolina, UNC Charlotte, Appalachian State, Middle Tennessee, Memphis, Louisville, Western Kentucky, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Troy, South Alabama, Alabama Birmingham, Southern Mississippi, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, South Florida and Central Florida. Note, Pittsburgh is State-related but still considered semi-private and did not make my list.

    To me, only UConn, Rutgers, Cincinatti, Louisville and ECU (if allowed by the Carolina mafia) seem to make the "big boy" cut. UConn is probably the best one of the group in terms of winning National Titles and being the typical large Land Grant University. Lousiville is the sexy pick these days as they seem to be winning a lot... but will that streak maintain in all other sports not named basketball. Rutgers and Cincinatti are ample but nothing to get excited about. ECU So are the 5 schools I picked better than Miami, BC, Syracuse, Pitt (and Notre Dame if you really want to count them)?

    This assumes the ACC doesn't have the ability to poach the B1G or SEC as well.
    So, to visualize this, the ACC in your scenario looks like this before expansion:

    Florida State
    Clemson
    Georgia Tech
    North Carolina
    NC State
    Duke
    Wake Forest
    Virginia Tech
    Virginia

    First off, I would say you are correct in assuming there would be no poaching from the SEC or the B1G. Also, if you're going to assume Maryland has still bolted for the B1G, I'm going to go ahead and assume Rutgers still went with them, so the State University of New Jersey is off the table. I'm further going to assume that the Big East still has Miami, West Virginia, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College. Assuming the Big East grabbed up Louisville when Virginia Tech left in 2004, they've still got a pretty decent football league and likely never bothered to add the other CUSA refugees they did over the last 10 years. So the Big East (or AAC, given I believe the football/basketball split was inevitable and may have happened sooner under this scenario) would look like this:

    Miami
    Syracuse
    Pittsburgh
    West Virginia
    Boston College
    Connecticut
    Louisville

    That conference would still be a "powerhouse" conference at this time and would be able to make a play for any school in which the ACC might be interested. I think they would have no trouble adding Cincinnati and East Carolina, keeping them from the ACC, if the ACC were interested, that is. What would be far more likely to happen would have been for the AAC to poach Florida State, Georgia Tech and Clemson from the ACC and add Cincinnati and South Florida to get to 12 and leaving the ACC decimated. The good news in that case would then be maybe Virginia Tech isn't quite so married to the ACC and considers calling up Mr. Slive about joining Texas A&M in the SEC?
    Last edited by Hokie CPA; Sun Jul 07 2013 at 09:02 AM.
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    I just wish we would STOP with the zone blocking read option crap and line up in the I, put a hat on a hat and run the tailback behind the fullback through a designated gosh-danged hole. There is NO REASON why this program shouldn't be able to find 5 fat guys who can move some people out of the way and clear a lane for a back to get through!

  3. #3
    Calamitous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie CPA View Post
    First off, I would say you are correct in assuming there would be no poaching from the SEC or the B1G. Also, if you're going to assume Maryland has still bolted for the B1G, I'm going to go ahead and assume Rutgers still went with them, so the State University of New Jersey is off the table. I'm further going to assume that the Big East still has Miami, West Virginia, Syracuse, Pittsburgh, and Boston College. Assuming the Big East grabbed up Louisville when Virginia Tech left in 2004, they've still got a pretty decent football league and likely never bothered to add the other CUSA refugees they did over the last 10 years.
    Let's complicate this further and say the ACC added Tech, Rutgers and WVU in 2004 to get to 12 teams. BTW... I edited my original post to switch WVU in place of ECU as a potential scenario. I accidentally left WVU out of the equation because I failed to account for the recent Big XII expansion; which didn't happen before 2011. If Tech, RU and WVU bolted for the ACC back then, the Big East would have probably added UL, Cincy, USF and UConn (minus Temple) like they did back then to get back to their original football numbers. BC, SU, Pitt, UL, Cincy, UConn, USF and Miami is still not that bad, but more watered down without Tech and WVU.

    The only problem is that the ACC wanted to keep their academic profile in good standing back in 2003-04 and WVU would have never been considered. UConn was still Division I-AA back then and would never had been considered. Therefore, I don't think the ACC had too many public university choices other than Rutgers and Tech. Maybe Pitt if you could truly consider them a public school.

  4. #4
    Hokie CPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    Let's complicate this further and say the ACC added Tech, Rutgers and WVU in 2004 to get to 12 teams. BTW... I edited my original post to switch WVU in place of ECU as a potential scenario. I accidentally left WVU out of the equation because I failed to account for the recent Big XII expansion; which didn't happen before 2011. If Tech, RU and WVU bolted for the ACC back then, the Big East would have probably added UL, Cincy, USF and UConn (minus Temple) like they did back then to get back to their original football numbers. BC, SU, Pitt, UL, Cincy, UConn, USF and Miami is still not that bad, but more watered down without Tech and WVU.

    The only problem is that the ACC wanted to keep their academic profile in good standing back in 2003-04 and WVU would have never been considered. UConn was still Division I-AA back then and would never had been considered. Therefore, I don't think the ACC had too many public university choices other than Rutgers and Tech. Maybe Pitt if you could truly consider them a public school.
    Actually, UConn was I-A beginning in 2002 and was set to spend three years transitioning so they could join the Big East in 2005. When Virginia Tech left the Big East, Connecticut was playing big boy football and would have been on the table. But I think they would have stayed with the AAC, especially if Boston College and Syracuse were still there. I also wouldn't hang my hat on the ACC luring Rutgers away. Like I said... it's far more likely the AAC would have poached the cream of the ACC crop and solidified themselves as the east coast conference.
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    I just wish we would STOP with the zone blocking read option crap and line up in the I, put a hat on a hat and run the tailback behind the fullback through a designated gosh-danged hole. There is NO REASON why this program shouldn't be able to find 5 fat guys who can move some people out of the way and clear a lane for a back to get through!

  5. #5
    Calamitous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hokie CPA View Post
    Actually, UConn was I-A beginning in 2002 and was set to spend three years transitioning so they could join the Big East in 2005. When Virginia Tech left the Big East, Connecticut was playing big boy football and would have been on the table. But I think they would have stayed with the AAC, especially if Boston College and Syracuse were still there. I also wouldn't hang my hat on the ACC luring Rutgers away. Like I said... it's far more likely the AAC would have poached the cream of the ACC crop and solidified themselves as the east coast conference.
    So would you agree that there weren't any better public university options versus private options? I only mention it because many feel the ACC is too private school-centric. Not that I'm a big fan of snooty private schools, but what were Swofford's realistic options?

    Personally, I would have liked the additions of Tech, WVU, Pitt, Miami, UConn, SU and somehow kept UMd IMHO. That feels right geographically to me. No weird holes. Plus all the schools are top 100 academically except for WVU.

  6. #6
    Hokie CPA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    So would you agree that there weren't any better public university options versus private options? I only mention it because many feel the ACC is too private school-centric. Not that I'm a big fan of snooty private schools, but what were Swofford's realistic options?

    Personally, I would have liked the additions of Tech, WVU, Pitt, Miami, UConn, SU and somehow kept UMd IMHO. That feels right geographically to me. No weird holes. Plus all the schools are top 100 academically except for WVU.
    Oh absolutely... I think if the ACC hadn't grabbed Miami and Virginia Tech like they did it would have been in real trouble. I also like your other additions as well, although adding those 6 to the original 9 would give you 15 and I'm pretty sure once you go to 12, even numbers are best for even divisions. Either need one more (Louisville? Boston College?) or you need to leave one behind (Uconn? Let Maryland go?).
    *.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*. *.*.*.*.*.*

    I just wish we would STOP with the zone blocking read option crap and line up in the I, put a hat on a hat and run the tailback behind the fullback through a designated gosh-danged hole. There is NO REASON why this program shouldn't be able to find 5 fat guys who can move some people out of the way and clear a lane for a back to get through!

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    Since 2004, the ACC has added Virginia Tech, Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Louisville in all sports with Notre Dame as a partial member. Only Tech and Louisville are among the public schools on that list with Pitt being a State related school.

    Just for fun, lets say the ACC went on a mission to only take public universities. This means the ACC never added Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse or Pittsburgh in ALL sports before 2011-12. That would also mean the ACC would only have had 10 schools (with only the addition of Tech) in 2011-12 before Maryland bolted for the B1G. Assuming Maryland still leaves in 2012, which 5 public schools east of the Mississippi should the ACC have added from the list below to get to 14 members:

    Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rutgers, Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Akron, Bowling Green State, Kent State, Miami (OH), Ohio, Toledo, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Ball State, Northern Illinois, Temple, Navy, West Virginia, Marshall, Old Dominion, East Carolina, UNC Charlotte, Appalachian State, Middle Tennessee, Memphis, Louisville, Western Kentucky, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Troy, South Alabama, Alabama Birmingham, Southern Mississippi, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, South Florida and Central Florida. Note, Pittsburgh is State-related but still considered semi-private and did not make my list.

    To me, only UConn, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Louisville and West Virginia seem to make the "big boy" cut. UConn is probably the best one of the group in terms of winning National Titles and being the typical large Land Grant University. Lousiville is the sexy pick these days as they seem to be winning a lot... but will that streak maintain in all other sports not named basketball? Rutgers and Cincinatti are ample but nothing to get excited about. WVU isn't a bad choice athletically IMHO. So are the 5 schools I picked better than Miami, BC, Syracuse, Pitt (and Notre Dame if you really want to count them)?

    This assumes the ACC doesn't have the ability to poach the B1G or SEC as well.
    Not to be pedantic, but Pitt is as public as Temple is ... or, for that matter, Penn State. Those three (and Lincoln) are all part of the CSHE. Temple and Pitt were private until the 1960s when they were brought into the CSHE. The other state schools (the normal schools like Shippensburg) form the PSSHE.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    Since 2004, the ACC has added Virginia Tech, Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Louisville in all sports with Notre Dame as a partial member. Only Tech and Louisville are among the public schools on that list with Pitt being a State related school.

    Just for fun, lets say the ACC went on a mission to only take public universities. This means the ACC never added Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse or Pittsburgh in ALL sports before 2011-12. That would also mean the ACC would only have had 10 schools (with only the addition of Tech) in 2011-12 before Maryland bolted for the B1G. Assuming Maryland still leaves in 2012, which 5 public schools east of the Mississippi should the ACC have added from the list below to get to 14 members:

    Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rutgers, Army, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Akron, Bowling Green State, Kent State, Miami (OH), Ohio, Toledo, Eastern Michigan, Central Michigan, Western Michigan, Ball State, Northern Illinois, Temple, Navy, West Virginia, Marshall, Old Dominion, East Carolina, UNC Charlotte, Appalachian State, Middle Tennessee, Memphis, Louisville, Western Kentucky, Georgia State, Georgia Southern, Troy, South Alabama, Alabama Birmingham, Southern Mississippi, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, South Florida and Central Florida. Note, Pittsburgh is State-related but still considered semi-private and did not make my list.

    To me, only UConn, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Louisville and West Virginia seem to make the "big boy" cut. UConn is probably the best one of the group in terms of winning National Titles and being the typical large Land Grant University. Lousiville is the sexy pick these days as they seem to be winning a lot... but will that streak maintain in all other sports not named basketball? Rutgers and Cincinatti are ample but nothing to get excited about. WVU isn't a bad choice athletically IMHO. So are the 5 schools I picked better than Miami, BC, Syracuse, Pitt (and Notre Dame if you really want to count them)?

    This assumes the ACC doesn't have the ability to poach the B1G or SEC as well.
    Keep in mind that the whole driving force in 2004 was to get Miami and to set up for a Championship Game. The NCAA requires 12 schools for a Championship Game. When the vote unravelled and the ACC was left with 11 schools, they tried to get the NCAA to change that requirement, and the NCAA would not.

    As far as public universities, I still wonder if it makes sense to add another one from Florida since it is such a football recruiting hotbed. That would add USF and UCF to your list of options. I'd love to see Penn State, but the Big Ten move for Maryland and Rutgers was designed to hold on to them. If they are definitely gone, then Temple becomes an option to try to capture both ends of Pennsylvania like the ACC has done in Florida with FSU and Miami. But Temple needs to step up their financial commitment to athletics.

  9. #9

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    This post just points out how shortsighted the ACC was an will continue to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamitous View Post
    Since 2004, the ACC has added Virginia Tech, Miami Fla, Boston College, Syracuse, Pittsburgh and Louisville in all sports with Notre Dame as a partial member. Only Tech and Louisville are among the public schools on that list with Pitt being a State related school.

    To me, only UConn, Rutgers, Cincinnati, Louisville and West Virginia seem to make the "big boy" cut.
    The ACC apparently expanded based on a need to maintain some unnecessary balance between private and public schools. How did the conference survive for so long with only two private schools?

    Virginia Tech, Pitt and Miami should have been the first three, and Syracuse and Rutgers could have quickly followed once conferences discovered the value of footprint and conference network revenue. At that point, the ACC could have challenged the B1G as a research power, and would have looked a lot better to PSU.

    Many folks here love to praise 'ninja' Wofford, but let's look at what we really have now: a bunch of Big East castoffs that any major conference could have added at any time; the part of Notre Dame that anybody could have had; no Maryland; and no conference TV network.

    Corporate analysts get paid well for predicting the future and they get fired when they don't. ACC leadership gets praise for being a fast follower. And in saying 'fast', I think I'm being generous.
    Last edited by lawhokie; Sat Jul 06 2013 at 04:19 PM.

  10. #10
    Calamitous's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HOO86 View Post
    Keep in mind that the whole driving force in 2004 was to get Miami and to set up for a Championship Game. The NCAA requires 12 schools for a Championship Game. When the vote unravelled and the ACC was left with 11 schools, they tried to get the NCAA to change that requirement, and the NCAA would not.
    Very true. In 2004, it was all about a championship game between Miami and FSU. The main point I was trying to make is that everyone seems to think the ACC had all these wonderful options (public or even private) when in reality, there wasn't that much fruit to pick. I think some think the ACC should have added Tech, Notre Dame, Miami, Texas, Oklahoma, Oklahoma State and Texas Tech.

    To get to 15, I like UConn because they are a winning program in almost all sports (even football has come around quickly if you think about it). And 16 may never happen seeing the ACC is holding their breath for ND. When (or should I say IF) Notre Dame leaves the ACC high and dry, #16 can be one of the Florida schools you mentioned. By that time, ODU might be a power and the ACC can have 3 Virginia schools.

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