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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by vthokiedsp View Post
    there was nothing about the whole situation that would give a potential hire a warm and fuzzy.
    Which IMO, not to defend JW per se, but for those who blast him over going "bargain basement" in hiring JJ..not hard to imagine any HC -or even a Bobby Lutz, in the days after CSG was dismissed and the way he was dismissed, not wanting anything to do with the VT job no matter how much money we could have offered..in addition to knowing they'd be working for an AD near retirement.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by HokieMadness View Post
    Fire a coach with that kind of performance considering where the program was when we hired him.

    With the way the NCAA committee has changed in the last 5-10 years, if ACC coaches are judged solely on NCAA tourney berths we are looking at a whole lot of turnover. The league as a whole isn't getting many in these days.
    So you think it was the firing of him at all that was the problem? I don't think that's correct. There was enough to fire him after that last season. Sometimes coaches just run their course at places, it happens. That's why Seth was out looking for new places like SMU as well. The issue with his firing wasn't that he was fired at all, it was the Dumpster Fire that Weaver turned the whole thing into.

    I'm sorry, as a High-Major Coach, you simply have to make the NCAA Tournament more than once a decade - it's just part of the job description. I know you don't like it, and I know you don't want it to be true, but you have to make the bloody tournament.

    SG couldn't do that. He tried and he tried, but he couldn't. So you part ways. Good try, good luck in your next place, and you try and get someone new. OR you hold on until the end of his contract, let that last class play out for the most part and see what happens (which was my preferred outcome). You do one or the other. What you don't do is whatever the hell Weaver did. He took a bad situation in a school with a bad reputation and made it worse.

    It's almost impressive in how hard of a failure it is.
    There's a difference between a "fact" and an "opinion that you agree with."

  3. #13
    Senior Member vthokiedsp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HokieSA View Post
    Which IMO, not to defend JW per se, but for those who blast him over going "bargain basement" in hiring JJ..not hard to imagine any HC -or even a Bobby Lutz, in the days after CSG was dismissed and the way he was dismissed, not wanting anything to do with the VT job no matter how much money we could have offered..in addition to knowing they'd be working for an AD near retirement.
    agreed. not the ideal hiring environment for sure. lot's a negatives working against a top notch hire. unfortunately, no matter how positive i try to be...we are several years away from even being in a position to turn things around.
    It's not that you are ignorant, it's just that you know so much that isn't so.

  4. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by HokieSA View Post
    Which IMO, not to defend JW per se, but for those who blast him over going "bargain basement" in hiring JJ..not hard to imagine any HC -or even a Bobby Lutz, in the days after CSG was dismissed and the way he was dismissed, not wanting anything to do with the VT job no matter how much money we could have offered..in addition to knowing they'd be working for an AD near retirement.

    That's not a defense of JW at all, because it was a situation he created.

    "JJ was the best hire JW could have come up with considering the depth charge he himself had dropped on the program" isn't an excuse, it's a sad reflection on a state of affairs.
    There's a difference between a "fact" and an "opinion that you agree with."

  5. #15
    Senior Member vthokiedsp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Groff View Post
    "JJ was the best hire JW could have come up with considering the depth charge he himself had dropped on the program" isn't an excuse, it's a sad reflection on a state of affairs.
    this. a buddy of mine said the situation was so unusual/mishandled that you could almost convince yourself it was intentional. not saying i believe that's what happened but maybe it's not as far fetched as it seems.

    anyways...i'm not familiar with what went on in the old days but for my generation of Hokies (35), it's hard to imagine a bigger "charlie foxtrot" than the SG/JW situation.
    It's not that you are ignorant, it's just that you know so much that isn't so.

  6. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groff View Post
    So you think it was the firing of him at all that was the problem? I don't think that's correct. There was enough to fire him after that last season. Sometimes coaches just run their course at places, it happens. That's why Seth was out looking for new places like SMU as well. The issue with his firing wasn't that he was fired at all, it was the Dumpster Fire that Weaver turned the whole thing into.

    I'm sorry, as a High-Major Coach, you simply have to make the NCAA Tournament more than once a decade - it's just part of the job description. I know you don't like it, and I know you don't want it to be true, but you have to make the bloody tournament.

    SG couldn't do that. He tried and he tried, but he couldn't. So you part ways. Good try, good luck in your next place, and you try and get someone new. OR you hold on until the end of his contract, let that last class play out for the most part and see what happens (which was my preferred outcome). You do one or the other. What you don't do is whatever the hell Weaver did. He took a bad situation in a school with a bad reputation and made it worse.

    It's almost impressive in how hard of a failure it is.
    I think firing him at all was a red flag to the profession. And the way it unfolded just compounded the problem and made the job look even worse.

    We will forever disagree on what SG accomplished here and that's ok. But I don't think you fire a guy in any situation unless you have someone better to replace him with.
    Last edited by HokieMadness; Tue Jul 02 2013 at 04:16 PM.

  7. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by HokieMadness View Post
    I think firing him at all was a red flag to the profession. And the way it unfolded just compounded the problem and made the job look even worse.
    Then "the profession" is unreasonable. The only BCS conference team with a longer NCAA appearance drought in that same timeframe was, what, Northwestern? Certainly no other ACC coach was able to go that long without an appearance and maintain employment.

    We will forever disagree on what SG accomplished here and that's ok. But I don't think you fire a guy in any situation unless you have someone better to replace him with.
    You'd be surprised at how much we agree on what SG accomplished here. the thing we disagree on is the importance of what he didn't accomplish. Namely, making the NCAA tournament. I think it's important for an NCAA Men's Basketball coach to make the tournament with some sort of reasonable semblance of regularity in order to maintain employment. You don't. That's fine, we disagree. I just think you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of other alleged high-major schools where going for almost a literal decade and making the thing once is acceptable.

    All we can do now is hope that whomever JWs successor is actually gives a crap about basketball and provides whoever his coach is with the resources and support necessary to make NCAA tournament appearances something that happens with a reasonable semblance of regularity.

    I also can't agree with your final sentence. You can't conduct a coaching search until you fire the coach you have. I do agree with the notion that you can't fire a guy unless you are willing to actually do the work to find a replacement who is better than the guy you have. Something that Jim Weaver has demonstrated over and over again the inability to do.
    Last edited by Groff; Tue Jul 02 2013 at 04:39 PM.
    There's a difference between a "fact" and an "opinion that you agree with."

  8. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groff View Post
    SG couldn't do that. He tried and he tried, but he couldn't. So you part ways. Good try, good luck in your next place, and you try and get someone new. OR you hold on until the end of his contract, let that last class play out for the most part and see what happens (which was my preferred outcome). You do one or the other. What you don't do is whatever the hell Weaver did. He took a bad situation in a school with a bad reputation and made it worse.

    It's almost impressive in how hard of a failure it is.
    This is dead on. And it's why in a rational world Weaver would have been canned the day after he fired Seth. This wasn't an all of a sudden thing. it had been building for at least that season, and some would argue for years. What Weaver did was beyond second rate. VT deserved much better. How that man still retains his job is beyond me.

  9. #19
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    IMHO, that is easy. Moir/Russell Pierre was far worse. The NCAA absolved Moir of all wrongdoing. The real problem was above. We wound up with Pierre and Forte because of people above - administartion, donors. People who desparately wanted us to beat Louisville. When things went bad, Lavery went into coverup mode to protect those above. I believe that was the beginning of the end of our basketball program. Outside of a year here and a year there, we have not recovered. Again, JMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lakeridgehokie View Post
    fiasco from the 80s. I hope it is the Moir situation when I was a student as I don't want to see VT get that bad again as it was through the "Frankie Hankie" years!!

  10. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groff View Post
    Then "the profession" is unreasonable. The only BCS conference team with a longer NCAA appearance drought in that same timeframe was, what, Northwestern? Certainly no other ACC coach was able to go that long without an appearance and maintain employment.



    You'd be surprised at how much we agree on what SG accomplished here. the thing we disagree on is the importance of what he didn't accomplish. Namely, making the NCAA tournament. I think it's important for an NCAA Men's Basketball coach to make the tournament with some sort of reasonable semblance of regularity in order to maintain employment. You don't. That's fine, we disagree. I just think you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of other alleged high-major schools where going for almost a literal decade and making the thing once is acceptable.

    All we can do now is hope that whomever JWs successor is actually gives a crap about basketball and provides whoever his coach is with the resources and support necessary to make NCAA tournament appearances something that happens with a reasonable semblance of regularity.

    I also can't agree with your final sentence. You can't conduct a coaching search until you fire the coach you have. I do agree with the notion that you can't fire a guy unless you are willing to actually do the work to find a replacement who is better than the guy you have. Something that Jim Weaver has demonstrated over and over again the inability to do.
    The profession realizes there's a lot more to a resume than NCAA tourney berths. If you use that as your sole metric then every team that doesn't make the tourney is judged as to have had equally successful seasons. That is absurd considering there are 340 teams in the NCAA.

    Take a look at VT's ACC finishes in SG's last 6 seasons (after the massive rebuild job required for the first 3 years). I posted it months ago and don't feel like going back and doing the research. The profession knows what he accomplished.

    You are welcome to disagree with my final sentence. I've fired/hired quite a few people in my job. I always gauge the interest for the job opening up (and have a good idea of the caliber of candidate, or the actual candidate all but hired already) before making a decision on the timing of the firing. It is irresponsible not to.
    Last edited by HokieMadness; Tue Jul 02 2013 at 04:57 PM.

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